D&D 4e
Dnes
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Alnag
28.5.2008 14:07
Dungeons & Dragons 4e (II)
Diskuse o čtvrté edici pravidel Dungeons & Dragons po jejich vydání. Prosíme i přes vypjaté téma o dodržování základních pravidel netikety, tak jako v jiných diskusích.
Navazuje na více či méně spekulativní diskusi o 4E.
Navazuje na více či méně spekulativní diskusi o 4E.
Ak je to tam s tím hodom na záchranu tak to robíme tak že si hádže ako keby posledná.
Almi: Normálně bych mu nechal iniciativu, co má a házel si s ním savy. Předpokládám, že je odsunuta neherně z hracího plánu, ale herně stojí někde v astrálu a překvapeně čumí (případně vysvětluje githianky, že není černý pasažér)
Timeless Trek in Mithredain (Bard 5) píše:
Effect: The target is banished to the Feywild (save ends). While banished, it is removed from play. When the effect ends, the target reappears in the space last occupied or in the nearest unoccupied space of its choice.
Dismissal (Cleric 9) píše:
Hit: The target disappears into an extraplanar prison (save ends). The target takes a -2 penalty to saving throws against this effect, or a -5 penalty if it is an abberant, elemental, immortal, fey, or shadow creature. When the target saves against this effect, it reappears in its original space. If that space is occupied, the target returns to the nearest unoccupied space.
Tak ten klerický tam vůbec žádné "removed from play" nemá, čiže nevidím důvod, proč by si neměl házet. Jen tak si prostě oběť plave v mezisvětí, blbě kouká a občas se pokusí si něco hodit.
"Removed from play" jsem ještě našla v jedné Incubí schopnosti, kde je ale doslova řečeno, že Incubus může používat svoje akce k jednání za svou oběť.
Nicméně na to, že je Výlet do Mithredainu schopnost páté úrovně, přijde mi trochu drsné kafe, aby zakazovala házet záchranu.
Effect: The target is banished to the Feywild (save ends). While banished, it is removed from play. When the effect ends, the target reappears in the space last occupied or in the nearest unoccupied space of its choice.
Dismissal (Cleric 9) píše:
Hit: The target disappears into an extraplanar prison (save ends). The target takes a -2 penalty to saving throws against this effect, or a -5 penalty if it is an abberant, elemental, immortal, fey, or shadow creature. When the target saves against this effect, it reappears in its original space. If that space is occupied, the target returns to the nearest unoccupied space.
Tak ten klerický tam vůbec žádné "removed from play" nemá, čiže nevidím důvod, proč by si neměl házet. Jen tak si prostě oběť plave v mezisvětí, blbě kouká a občas se pokusí si něco hodit.
"Removed from play" jsem ještě našla v jedné Incubí schopnosti, kde je ale doslova řečeno, že Incubus může používat svoje akce k jednání za svou oběť.
Nicméně na to, že je Výlet do Mithredainu schopnost páté úrovně, přijde mi trochu drsné kafe, aby zakazovala házet záchranu.
Remove from play je popsáno v glossary MM3. Znamená to, že potvora ztrácí všechny akce, také veškerý line of sight/effect. Má ale začátek a konec kola, takže její efekty na hráčských postavách a naopak se ukončují/savují normálně.
U Sethiiny klerické schopnosti není termín remove from play, protože ten je nový (z MM3), ale duch pravidel je zřejmě tentýž (přinejmenším v tom, že potvora ztrácí LoS/LoE), ale není tam explicitně napsáno, že ztrácí i akce, jako u té bardské...
Takže jak jsem říkal... bardská je drsnější. :D
U Sethiiny klerické schopnosti není termín remove from play, protože ten je nový (z MM3), ale duch pravidel je zřejmě tentýž (přinejmenším v tom, že potvora ztrácí LoS/LoE), ale není tam explicitně napsáno, že ztrácí i akce, jako u té bardské...
Takže jak jsem říkal... bardská je drsnější. :D
Takže jsou to vlastně velká slova pro malé divadlo. Typicky bardské =)
Perníček, QuentinW, Alojz, Alnag: Super, hned jsem klidnější. Tak to vyhovuje. Vy na tu potvoru vždycky naházíte hromadu postihů, takhle je má čas aspoň shodit nebo "vyšuměj", než se vrátí z výletu. A stejně tak může mít "nabité" recharge schopnosti, tuším...aspoň tak :-)
Lotrando: Jo, to by bylo tajemný ("ten drak se vrátil na kost ohlodaný!" :o)))
..ale bohužel většinou odešlou potvoru relativně čerstvou a pak poslušně čekaj, až se vrátí :-) Zatím má obranná taktika spočívá v tom, maskovat skutečnýho parchanta, aby pryč poslali jen miniona (zatím nedostižný sen :-))
..ale bohužel většinou odešlou potvoru relativně čerstvou a pak poslušně čekaj, až se vrátí :-) Zatím má obranná taktika spočívá v tom, maskovat skutečnýho parchanta, aby pryč poslali jen miniona (zatím nedostižný sen :-))
Po asi roce jsem se mi zastesklo po dnd, hral jsem dve hry, jednu 1 on 1 postavenou na pravidlech a dnd jen fluffove predelane do sveta stargate. Ta dopadla docela vlazne z meho DM pohledu, ale hrac mi po hre posilal sms ze super, tak se asi libila. Pribeh jednoduchy, hrac byl clenem SG teamu, ktery byl vyslan na patrani po jinem SG teamu, ktery se ztratil. Zachrana mise byla ladena do stylu filmu Vetrelec. Jako dobry no, bylo videt, ze jsem mel rok pauzu. Skoro nic nevyznelo tak jak jsem chtel a priste bych to udelal jinak. Jednak bych hral v noci a ne prez den, druhak si pripravil nejakou hudbu a za treti nevim. Moc tomu chybeli dalsi hraci.
No a dneska jsem pripravoval takovou ukazkovou hru pro cloveka, ktery zna jen drd a rikal ze se mu to velmi libilo. (Prekvapive). Hlavne byl nadseny z jednoduchych a sviznych souboju. Myslim si ze na to neni zvykly a ja jsem znovu uneseny z toho jak se daji delat souboje filmove a jak k tomu powery postav nahravaji. Hlavne se oba hraci hodne chytali. Parada. At zije DND. Love it. Tesim se na essentials.
No a dneska jsem pripravoval takovou ukazkovou hru pro cloveka, ktery zna jen drd a rikal ze se mu to velmi libilo. (Prekvapive). Hlavne byl nadseny z jednoduchych a sviznych souboju. Myslim si ze na to neni zvykly a ja jsem znovu uneseny z toho jak se daji delat souboje filmove a jak k tomu powery postav nahravaji. Hlavne se oba hraci hodne chytali. Parada. At zije DND. Love it. Tesim se na essentials.
yashamaru: Jojo, Slaying Stone je kupodivu docela povedené dobrodružství..i když chce trochu doupravit (pár encounterů vypustit a pár zase přidat) Právě ho také dohrávám coby one-shot :-)
No, spíš tak trochu five-shot... Ale uznávám, že ve srovnání s jinými je to v podstatě krátké =)
Ja hlavne doufam, ze s prichodem Essentials prestanou erratovat Core pravidla, chci si to vsecko konecne VYTISKNOUT, zalozit, a poslat lidi co mi remcaj nad neustalyma zmenama pravidel nekam.
Obávám se že dokud budou vycháízet příručky tak se budou pravidla erratovat...
a pak budou vychzet příručky s eraty aby si je mohli lidi koupit a aby hlavně bylo co Eratovat (když vyjdou Erata Erat tak to začne být lehce nesympatické, a hlavně za to jidi neutrácí)
Kdy už konečně tvůrci odpálí kecy o tom, že erratování je dobré, že je indikátorem toho, že se hráči mají možnost podílet na herních úpravách a tvůrci na ně dynamicky reagují, moderní pojetí, blablabla ... zatím stále nic. Nespat, marketingové oddělení WotC, nespat! :-)
At si erratujou ty novy! Ja chci proste po 3 letech mit finalni verzi PHB1 a tak dale, ne ze si zas nakej stoural vzpomene, ze tohle by vlastne mohla bejt minor akce a vyjde kvuli tomu jeden blbej list papiru kterej ale nejde zalozit mezi ostatni listy papiru a AARGH! OCD je zlo.
Essentialsy jsou taka nadstavba 4e resici spoustu veci stejne ucinne, ale elegantneji. Podle toho, co jsem slysel, treba zredukuje predmety s powersama (WIN) a tak podobne.
Essentialsy jsou taka nadstavba 4e resici spoustu veci stejne ucinne, ale elegantneji. Podle toho, co jsem slysel, treba zredukuje predmety s powersama (WIN) a tak podobne.
Co říkáte na další úpravu DC, dnes uveřejněnou? :o))
Stephen Schubert píše:
We continually evaluate the tools we’ve put into the game. As we design and develop rules and mechanics, we base some of the work on underlying assumptions regarding how we expect players to advance and improve their characters through their choices of mechanical elements such as feats and items. A short time ago, we evaluated the DCs for the skills subsystem and made some adjustments to the rate at which DCs scale with level. These tables appear on page 126 of the Rules Compendium as well as on the DM Screen available in the DM Kit.
If you compare the new values to the DCs from the Dungeon Master’s Guide and DMG 2, you’ll notice that the DCs are higher across the board. You'll also notice that Hard DC entries scale faster than Easy and Moderate DCs by level. Finally, the new skill DC table has an entry for each level instead of grouping levels into bands of three. These changes are far from arbitrary, as you’ll see.
Early on, we divided checks into Hard, Medium, and Easy, but we didn’t do a good job of telling DMs which one to use in a situation. We needed a system that would not only guide the DM on when to use a particular check but also describe the sorts of characters that would be attempting these checks.
The first step when evaluating the DCs was to determine what those DC categories truly represent. Then we describe our archetypical character who fits that category and determine the typical skill bonus that character might have. Finally, we set DCs based on a curve of expected values that would provide a reasonable challenge at each level—we define reasonable challenge as a d20 roll that is successful around 65% of the time (you need to roll 8+ on the die).
DIFFICULTY CLASS BY LEVEL
Level Easy Moderate Hard
1 8 12 19
2 9 13 20
3 9 13 21
4 10 14 21
5 10 15 22
6 11 15 23
7 11 16 23
8 12 16 24
9 12 17 25
10 13 18 26
11 13 19 27
12 14 20 28
13 14 20 29
14 15 21 29
15 15 22 30
16 16 22 31
17 16 23 31
18 17 23 32
19 17 24 33
20 18 25 34
21 19 26 35
22 20 27 36
23 20 27 37
24 21 28 37
25 21 29 38
26 22 29 39
27 22 30 39
28 23 30 40
29 23 31 41
30 24 32 42
Easy: The action involved isn’t trivial but is still pretty simple. These are the simplest checks and should represent a reasonable challenge for characters that have no training in the skill (an untrained character). An untrained character is typically adding half his level to the skill and probably doesn’t have an ability score that helps him out. He might get another +1 by Epic tier, since all his ability modifiers have increased by 21st level. Trained characters have little risk of failure, and expert characters are nearly guaranteed success. These are the DCs that we suggest DMs should use when every character in the party is expected to make the check or for group checks (where half the PCs must succeed on the roll to earn a success for the group).
Moderate: A moderate check requires a bit of training or innate ability, or a bit of luck. These checks are aimed at skilled characters who have training in the skill, though there are other options for getting a similar skill modifier, such as having a high ability score (18+) in the skill’s key ability or combining a racial bonus and a moderate (14+) ability score. These DCs scale a little faster than easy DCs, which accounts for ability score increases or adding a feat or path feature if the key ability isn’t your primary or secondary class stat. These DCs are the standard difficulty for a skill check in a skill challenge.
Hard: These checks are designed to test characters who are even more focused on the particular skill, though there might still be some chance of failure even for these expert characters. Without additional assistance (such as a power bonus or another character’s aid), the expert PC will succeed against these DCs around two out of three times. The expert PC typically has training in the skill, and his or her primary ability score is the skill’s key ability (or secondary ability score along with a skill focus feat or racial bonus). As the character increases in level, we expect feat and item selection to provide an extra boost along the way, as well as ability score increases. This DC is a good choice to really challenge a focused PC, though it’s also a good DC to use for repeated successes with a single skill in a skill challenge (once the first, moderate attempt is successful).
All-In: As we identified these character archetypes, we also noted a fourth sort of PC—the “all-in” character. This guy takes every possible advantage toward maximizing a particular skill. He has feats, a racial bonus, starts with a 20 in the primary modifier, is trained in the skill, and searches out magic items that further advance his skill. Even with our now-higher Hard DC scale, this character is nearly guaranteed success. But it’s also difficult to get bonuses that high for more than one or two skills. Rather than push the Hard DCs out of reach of typical characters, we recognize that those characters exist and will be really good at their chosen vocation. If the DM is doing his job (and we’ve given even more tools to help with that), then that character will have his moments to shine but will also face many challenges that can't be tackled with his maxed-out skill.
These new DCs form the backbone for our skill challenges and for other skill-related rolls throughout the game. For example, escape DCs for monsters or traps can be set based on the sorts of characters we expect should have a chance.
We hope this sheds some light on the method behind our madness. Be sure to check out Rules Compendium for an in-depth look at setting up skill checks and challenges in your game!
Stephen Schubert píše:
We continually evaluate the tools we’ve put into the game. As we design and develop rules and mechanics, we base some of the work on underlying assumptions regarding how we expect players to advance and improve their characters through their choices of mechanical elements such as feats and items. A short time ago, we evaluated the DCs for the skills subsystem and made some adjustments to the rate at which DCs scale with level. These tables appear on page 126 of the Rules Compendium as well as on the DM Screen available in the DM Kit.
If you compare the new values to the DCs from the Dungeon Master’s Guide and DMG 2, you’ll notice that the DCs are higher across the board. You'll also notice that Hard DC entries scale faster than Easy and Moderate DCs by level. Finally, the new skill DC table has an entry for each level instead of grouping levels into bands of three. These changes are far from arbitrary, as you’ll see.
Early on, we divided checks into Hard, Medium, and Easy, but we didn’t do a good job of telling DMs which one to use in a situation. We needed a system that would not only guide the DM on when to use a particular check but also describe the sorts of characters that would be attempting these checks.
The first step when evaluating the DCs was to determine what those DC categories truly represent. Then we describe our archetypical character who fits that category and determine the typical skill bonus that character might have. Finally, we set DCs based on a curve of expected values that would provide a reasonable challenge at each level—we define reasonable challenge as a d20 roll that is successful around 65% of the time (you need to roll 8+ on the die).
DIFFICULTY CLASS BY LEVEL
Level Easy Moderate Hard
1 8 12 19
2 9 13 20
3 9 13 21
4 10 14 21
5 10 15 22
6 11 15 23
7 11 16 23
8 12 16 24
9 12 17 25
10 13 18 26
11 13 19 27
12 14 20 28
13 14 20 29
14 15 21 29
15 15 22 30
16 16 22 31
17 16 23 31
18 17 23 32
19 17 24 33
20 18 25 34
21 19 26 35
22 20 27 36
23 20 27 37
24 21 28 37
25 21 29 38
26 22 29 39
27 22 30 39
28 23 30 40
29 23 31 41
30 24 32 42
Easy: The action involved isn’t trivial but is still pretty simple. These are the simplest checks and should represent a reasonable challenge for characters that have no training in the skill (an untrained character). An untrained character is typically adding half his level to the skill and probably doesn’t have an ability score that helps him out. He might get another +1 by Epic tier, since all his ability modifiers have increased by 21st level. Trained characters have little risk of failure, and expert characters are nearly guaranteed success. These are the DCs that we suggest DMs should use when every character in the party is expected to make the check or for group checks (where half the PCs must succeed on the roll to earn a success for the group).
Moderate: A moderate check requires a bit of training or innate ability, or a bit of luck. These checks are aimed at skilled characters who have training in the skill, though there are other options for getting a similar skill modifier, such as having a high ability score (18+) in the skill’s key ability or combining a racial bonus and a moderate (14+) ability score. These DCs scale a little faster than easy DCs, which accounts for ability score increases or adding a feat or path feature if the key ability isn’t your primary or secondary class stat. These DCs are the standard difficulty for a skill check in a skill challenge.
Hard: These checks are designed to test characters who are even more focused on the particular skill, though there might still be some chance of failure even for these expert characters. Without additional assistance (such as a power bonus or another character’s aid), the expert PC will succeed against these DCs around two out of three times. The expert PC typically has training in the skill, and his or her primary ability score is the skill’s key ability (or secondary ability score along with a skill focus feat or racial bonus). As the character increases in level, we expect feat and item selection to provide an extra boost along the way, as well as ability score increases. This DC is a good choice to really challenge a focused PC, though it’s also a good DC to use for repeated successes with a single skill in a skill challenge (once the first, moderate attempt is successful).
All-In: As we identified these character archetypes, we also noted a fourth sort of PC—the “all-in” character. This guy takes every possible advantage toward maximizing a particular skill. He has feats, a racial bonus, starts with a 20 in the primary modifier, is trained in the skill, and searches out magic items that further advance his skill. Even with our now-higher Hard DC scale, this character is nearly guaranteed success. But it’s also difficult to get bonuses that high for more than one or two skills. Rather than push the Hard DCs out of reach of typical characters, we recognize that those characters exist and will be really good at their chosen vocation. If the DM is doing his job (and we’ve given even more tools to help with that), then that character will have his moments to shine but will also face many challenges that can't be tackled with his maxed-out skill.
These new DCs form the backbone for our skill challenges and for other skill-related rolls throughout the game. For example, escape DCs for monsters or traps can be set based on the sorts of characters we expect should have a chance.
We hope this sheds some light on the method behind our madness. Be sure to check out Rules Compendium for an in-depth look at setting up skill checks and challenges in your game!
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